erraticwisdom

Comments

1. Agreed : if there is an Other ‘lining up dominoes,’ it would be quite cruel.

   I get through life by accepting that for every action there is a reaction. I think this applies in the spiritual realm as well, but not in the Heaven vs. Hell way I was taught as child.

   It seems to me that it makes perfect sense that there are those on our planet who have too much pain and hunger in their lives, and there are those who have a ridiculous glut of pleasure and food. I don’t think we can have one without the other – to do so would be to eliminate the very meaning that is intrinsic in either extreme (eg – without the loss that comes from losing love, how would we find value in having it?).

   Daniel Holter

   May 12, 06:53 AM #

2. Daniel Holter: It seems to me that it makes perfect sense that there are those on our planet who have too much pain and hunger in their lives, and there are those who have a ridiculous glut of pleasure and food. I don’t think we can have one without the other

   That makes sense, but it doesn’t make it any easier or harder for the people at the edges.

   We don’t control whether nor how we exist, and I can’t accept that kind of predestined suffering as just a necessary counterweight. Why should I have these opportunities (and others still more) when there are infants and children who face such horrible hardships with almost no chance of survival, much less opportunities to grow and enjoy living.

   It’s a difficult topic, even conceptually, because it’s not like I could give consent for existing…before existing, but would I still choose to exist if I knew my life would be just 4 months of pain and starvation (not to reduce the lives of those lost to just this, but there have surely been cases where things were predominantly unpleasant)?

   Thame

   May 12, 10:48 AM #

3. I believe Warren Buffett refers to this phenomenon as ‘winning the genetic lottery.’ I’m paraphrasing, probably, but I do appreciate the fact that one of the wealthiest men in history believes in tangibly helping those less fortunate, and does so out of a sense of fairness and justice that has eluded The Church for thousands of years (I mean if you measure their actual impact – imagine the time and money spent on cathedrals, torture chambers, and sex abuse lawsuits if those efforts and resources had been directed at solving problems instead of creating them or maintaining control over people).

   And most of your readers situations are truly ‘fortunate,’ or a ‘blessing’ to use religious vernacular – the opportunity to read your blog involves some good fortune along the way… a) education; b) relative wealth to afford a computer and internet access; c) living in a country that allows us to view this “Blasphemy!”

   :)

   Daniel Holter

   May 12, 11:38 AM #

4. I’m dumbfounded when people make assumptions about God and then try to rationalize on the assumed “choices” or “decisions” that the Highest Entity has supposedly made on our lives.

   If it makes a person feel better then by all means, she/he should go ahead and continue. But in my opinion, a person is only making things worse for her/his-self in the end.

   If one knows anything about God, it’s that one knows nothing. The closest understanding of God that anyone can have is understanding love and compassion.

   omnihilum

   May 13, 07:27 AM #

5. That’s a pretty fitting quote, sure it’s not all genetic but it is a lottery.

   This type of inequality is everywhere too, even in our own bodies we have critical, active neurons and relatively idle, short-lived skin cells. They both contribute to the big picture, but are neurons of higher “value” than the skin cells that we brush off by the millions?

   omnihilum: I’m dumbfounded when people make assumptions about God and then try to rationalize on the assumed “choices” or “decisions” that the Highest Entity has supposedly made on our lives.

   I agree that I know absolutely nothing, and I’m not trying to figure things out as much as I am trying to grasp what it means to be here.

   omnihilum: The closest understanding of God that anyone can have is understanding love and compassion.

   I like that!

   Thame

   May 15, 09:27 AM #

6. Probably not much I can add that won’t be repetitive, except a couple of things. First, I’m hoping you didn’t add that disclaimer because of some response you received. That would be kind of sad.

   Second, I consider deities to be just anthropomorphized labels for the complement to what we <em>think</em> we know, i.e. that vast set of things about which we’re ignorant. All the personification notwithstanding, it seems convenient to refer to something by some metaphor, not unlike ships, to which some attribute genders and names. The intent is not to actually persuade passersby that this boat is, indeed, a conscious agent in the world. It just fits the mold of human cognition to attach this sort of shorthand label to things.

   Considered this way, of course we will likely never know anything statistically significant about “God.” From our vantage, the number of things to know seems approximately infinite, and you don’t really approach infinity. You may, at best, marvel at it from afar. Thus, a deity.

   Daniel Black

   May 15, 02:32 PM #

7. It is saddening to look around the world and see so much suffering, but I wonder: how can we even define what evil is? To speak of pain and suffering, we must first consider the inverse of that proposition: what is good? And to have a normative good, there must be an assigner of that good.

   It seems like the arguments here may be putting the cart before the horse: we’re assuming a ‘good’ to designate an ‘evil’ while negating the only entity that can ascribe ‘good.’

   In the end, I ask, “How do we know what is good and what ‘should be’?”

   Andrew

   May 20, 07:26 AM #

8. Interesting post to me.

   I respect and really appreciate the honestly and openness of your simply “trying to grasp what it means to be here.” That’s cool, to me.

   In that spirit of open investigation, I want to share something I once heard someone say. They said that if God is real and if he wants you to know about him and if you want to know about him then you should be able to just ask him to show himself to you and he will. If he doesn’t, then maybe there’s nothing there, but if he does, then you’ll know.

   I thought it sounded logical…

   Andrew

   May 20, 10:42 AM #

9. “If there is a creature somewhere, lining up dominoes of lives and be-ings, that’s just cruel.”
   There is no creature outside of you or us. We create our lives, destiny, physical body…..
   I would suggest to read a book called
   (THE WHEEL OF LIFE THE MYSTERY OF DEATH)

   M. Kraft

   May 20, 12:04 PM #

10. “They said that if God is real and if he wants you to know about him and if you want to know about him then you should be able to just ask him to show himself to you and he will. If he doesn’t, then maybe there’s nothing there, but if he does, then you’ll know.”

    Andrew, I wish it were that simple, I really do. Perhaps it would end this ongoing feud between theists and skeptics (which will likely never end). In putting myself in the shoes of a theist, there’s so many ways around that test.

    “If God doesn’t show himself, that’s his will”
    “If God chooses not to give you a direct sign that he’s there, an indirect sign will do, however vague”
    “If your prayer isn’t answered by God, maybe God’s answer is Wait“

    Some people want to believe. Other don’t. I think a lot of people don’t really want to change their opinion no matter what happens.

    Ted Goas

    May 20, 12:51 PM #

11. erm, so does anyone want to know what God has to say on the subject?
    I mean there’s a whole book and everything. That and Jesus dying for everyone.
    I know, I know, it all seems like it’s all been said before, but Jesus and the Bible are God’s open letter to us.
    At the very least it’s one answer to the “why?“question.

    David McKinnon

    May 21, 05:36 AM #

12. “They said that if God is real and if he wants you to know about him and if you want to know about him then you should be able to just ask him to show himself to you and he will. If he doesn’t, then maybe there’s nothing there, but if he does, then you’ll know.”

    Andrew, I wish it were that simple, I really do. Perhaps it would end this ongoing feud between theists and skeptics (which will likely never end). In putting myself in the shoes of a theist, there’s so many ways around that test.

    I believe it is that simple. Here’s why: David mentioned the Bible. The Bible claims to be God’s word (2 Timothy 3:16). And it says this: “If you look for me wholeheartedly, you will find me.” (Jeremiah 29:13) So, again, if we search “wholeheartedly” for God, and he doesn’t show himself, either He’s not real or He’s a liar.

    I understand people will try to explain things away (“God’s telling you to wait”, etc.), but personally, I don’t buy it. I think more often than not, when people search for God and don’t find him, it is because they don’t want to (they don’t look with their whole heart). As Ted very accurately said, “Some people want to believe. Other don’t. I think a lot of people don’t really want to change their opinion no matter what happens.”

    Andrew

    May 22, 02:39 PM #

13. Andrew,

    One thing you must be careful of when quoting scripture, is context. Narrowing scripture down to one line tends to remove the context, and can be quite a dangerous thing.

    For example, You quote Jeremiah 29:13 and say that if God doesn’t show himself he is either not real, or a liar. But you take that verse to me that it refers to you or I searching for God, when in fact, it is the nation of Israel exiled in Babylon who that verse was directed at.

    Thus says the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel, to all the exiles whom I exiled from Jerusalem to Babylon:
    Jeremiah 29:4

    Scripture can reveal alot to us, but we must always remember to seek the context, else we may come to a false conclusion.

    Travis

    May 22, 06:17 PM #

14. Well yeah Travis, but I think Andrew’s point still stands. Try this one from Luke 11:
    “And I tell you, ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives, and the one who seeks finds, and to the one who knocks it will be opened. What father among you, if his son asks for a fish, will instead of a fish give him a serpent; or if he asks for an egg, will give him a scorpion? If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will the heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!”
    I think Jesus makes it pretty clear there.
    And so will I once I work out how to do get the blockquote thing to work.

    David McKinnon

    May 26, 03:44 AM #

15. Aside from philosophers who have insisted (and continue to insist) it is so, why should anyone think there has ever been any manner of separation (sin, birth, death, etc.) whatsoever between one’s self and the Infinite?

    The disciples said to Jesus, “Tell us, how will our end come?” Jesus said, “Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death.” — The Gospel of Thomas

    Clear concept of infinity. (Wheel of Life) Here’s another:

    But about the resurrection of the dead—have you not read what God said to you, ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not the God of the dead but of the living.”

    Meaning: no one is ever born and no one ever dies. These are human concepts based on physical observations. Everyone is (have always been and will always be) ‘alive’.

    Suppose…. God is not a being. God is being. God is not loving. God is love. God is not the Creator. God is creation. What if the same creative and destructive forces we perceive in nature are intermingled within us precisely because we are extensions of nature? It would follow, then, that we are interconnected, interdependent extensions of God.

    Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I have said you are gods’? [John 10:34]

    Suppose all human beings are incarnations of deity and some are just quite a bit better at showing it than others because they perceive no manner of separation between themselves and everything that transcends themselves that isn’t a product of the limited human mind?

    Perhaps when humanity stops projecting its own image – hopes, fears, plans, patterns and purposes – upon God, God is ‘revealed’.

    Just an idea…

    P.S. We live in a Samsara of our own creation, imho.

    QD

    Jun 2, 10:17 PM #

16. To all of those quoting Bible verses, you must understand that atheists and skeptics might not think any verse from the Bible holds water.

    Sure I believe some parts of the Bible to be true, but would I use the book as my single reference point to prove or disprove a point? Absolutely not. It is a single book, much of it unprovable. And everyone has a different opinion of its contents (hence how many denominations of Christianity do we have, and what makes your’s right beyond all doubt?).

    You gotta come up with something that speaks to me a little better than Bible verses. What about human reason and logic?

    Ted Goas

    Jun 5, 06:17 AM #

17. To all of those quoting Bible verses, you must understand that atheists and skeptics might not think any verse from the Bible holds water.

    In fact, text from it – and every other sacred text in the world – doesn’t hold a single drop of water when it comes to answers to questions about the physical plane of existence, what it’s made of and how it works. That’s what science is for.

    Thankfully, though, I’ve yet to see anyone making a case for the existence or non-existence of God on this thread. (What a round-robin that is.) What I have seen is a whole lot of questing after the metaphysical aspects of existence and from it I’ve garnered some insight into how various commenters view the metaphysical aspects of their existence. The two are, of course, entirely different pursuits, though a great many people don’t seem to realize it…yet. Methinks it will be very nice when they do.

    QD

    Jun 5, 08:22 PM #

18. Ted Goas: You gotta come up with something that speaks to me a little better than Bible verses. What about human reason and logic?

    When you’re given the gift of something as perfect as the Bible, why would you ever need insignificant and imperfect human abilities such as “reason” or “logic” ?

    /sarcasm_OFF

    Daniel Holter

    Jun 12, 10:30 AM #

19. When you’re given the gift of something as perfect as the Bible, why would you ever need insignificant and imperfect human abilities such as “reason” or “logic”?

    Surely, you jest? Without reason and logic, no one in the world would understand word one of the Christian Bible for starters. ;)

    More importantly, though, you wouldn’t be able to ascertain the parallels between your spiritual path and all others and so (doubtless) would find little in common with your fellow humans in metaphysical matters. N’est-ce pas?

    QD

    Jun 12, 09:26 PM #

20. /sarcasm_OFF

    lol Y’ok. Now, I get it….especially after clicking through to your web site.

    Whew. Had me worried for a second there. (I’ve actually been met with just that kind of argument before.)

    QD

    Jun 12, 10:35 PM #

21. Raised in a secular family, I’ve never believed in the divine. Human spirituality, however, has been my cup of tea since I was a young teenager. I’ve grown to be a Secular Humanist and a free will defender. Atheism is a poor community coagulant, but religion might just make the new globalized society implode to smithereens. I promote tolerance and love for wisdom, which is what philosophy eventually boils down to.

    Laurentius

    Jun 28, 09:02 AM #

22. I promote tolerance and love for wisdom

    Love that.

    I’ve never believed in the divine. Human spirituality…

    One and the same in my understanding. Jesus, Buddha, Mohamed and others seemed to feel the same way though many followers of religions supposedly based on their teachings don’t seem to think so….

    It’s unfortunately been hijacked by anti-theists, but one of the quotes that more or less defines the teachings of Jesus for me (but not Christianity) is the one I quoted above. (John 10:34) This was supposedly a response to a bunch of religious lawyers who wished to stone Jesus for claiming divinity for himself. While Christianity and, especially, its fundamentalist branches insist that Jesus was the one and only “son of God”, the fact remains that he referred to everyone – Jewish, Roman and Gentile at the time – as sons and daughters of God and sons and daughters of Man(kind) as well as brothers and sisters. This is a metaphorical and very humanist relationship intended to illustrate that we are all in the same very large boat and interdependent upon each other, imho. In other words, he meant for other people to reclaim their own divinity – sacred integrity, call it what you will – from the religious lawyers who had stolen it from them with oppressive laws, rules and rituals.

    I was lamenting a few months ago, also, that humanism had sprouted adjectives such as “secular” in so many quarters. (No personal offence intended. It just really makes me sad.) What is secular humanism? Physical humanism? Seriously, I understand it is meant to draw a distinction between religious and non-religious people in the political arena — which is the cause of all our woes, imho — but, the term honestly makes no sense to me.

    Human (and all other) beings are as much spiritual (or metaphysical) as physical in nature. There’s no line of demarcation there that hasn’t been devised as one to be drawn in the mind by someone with supposed power over our personal beings and welfare. It seems difficult enough for people to see themselves as all part of the human race, but infinitely more so when barriers to what they have in common are constantly being erected by those in “authority” to prevent them from seeing it. The secular/religious divide is yet another by-product of collective political mind-sets hell-bent on creating ever more divisions between people with their ubiquitous labels, imho.

    There are/have been religious humanists (Dalai Lama, Thich Nhat Hanh, Ghandi, Jesus, Mohamed, MLK), athesist humanists (Greg Epstein et al) and humanists of every other possible stripe.

    Humanism is humanism no matter how it’s cut or what the packaging. Is it just me or aren’t all these divisions created in the mind.

    QD

    Jul 3, 09:26 PM #

23. If you want to find God, searching wholeheartedly won’t help you. You can’t find God if all you want is to prove he exists. You must seek God without a spiritual gain in mind…and to do so, you must quiet your mind and understand yourself. Ultimate attention to your own thoughts, feelings, and actions, with love in your heart will lead you to God.

    Organized religion is merely a hindrance, bringing people to repeat the same stale phrases that have brought human-kind no relief from its misery. Using any holy book as a mechanical method to find God is much like the engineer who uses equations in a book to build a bridge, but doesn’t actually understand the physics behind it—not mechanically efficient, and not intelligent.

    Only by educating and understanding ourselves, and helping others to do the same, can we save ourselves from this torturous existence.

    elchivo

    Jul 8, 11:52 AM #

24. @ Andrew… I was brought up as a Catholic but tossed it out in my teens. Someone challenged me to ask God to show himself to me just as you mentioned. After 17 years of religious upbringing I had zero expectation, disliked christians and was enjoying life as a non-believer. However I have always had a hunger for truth. So I said a simple, sincere prayer: “God , if you’re real (yes, I think I actually said that!) – if you show me – then I’ll believe in you”.

    I was not prepared for what happened to me before the last words of that single sentence had left my mouth. The atmosphere in the car where I was sitting literally filled with the presence of God. My life was now suddenly and totally different. I went back to my flat and was led to a Bible – I just opened and read where my thumb was. Let me just say that to this day no other verse in the Bible could have had more meaning than the single verse I read at that moment. My attempt at agnosticism lay shattered on the floor.

    That was 30 years ago. I’ve continued to search for God and for truth, and have found Him more and more. In my 30 year study of the Bible I have found both perplexing paradoxes and staggering, interlocking, supernatural proof (small example: with an open mind check out [if you are a truth searcher] Daniel’s timetable for the coming messiah in Dan 9, which predicted perfectly, among other things, the exact timing of Jesus’ coming, hundreds of years before).

    Tom – your domino suggestion is a deduction starting with a flawed premise. The journey AND the destination are important, but the Bible clearly states that the destination is the most important – that’s where Home is. That’s where the Father is. The journey, fallen dominos and all, will be forgotten.

    Why can I be so presumptive as to use the Bible to establish truth? Well if you study the Bible logically with an open mind – you’ll find that the Bible establishes and proves its authority beyond doubt in remarkable ways. Of course at the same time it is bigger than any human’s ability to claim they fully have it tamed.

    My favourite verse, which somehow is still beautifully poetic no matter which english translation from hebrew is read:

    “Eye has not seen, nor ear heard, neither has it entered into the heart of man – the things that God has prepared for those that love Him.”

    paulie

    Dec 21, 03:05 AM #