Achieving Immortality
The ancient world’s infatuation with immortality and egotistical permanence was perhaps even stronger than today. The epics of ancient Sumerian, Indian and Greek civilizations that I have read through one of my courses make this quite obvious. In each, a major character is faced with the realization of their own fate regardless of their actions or choices.
Understanding and coming to terms with my own fragile and fleeting life has been very difficult to me. I am seventeen years old, of course I’m immortal. However, I think that my goals have really changed with my recent thinking.
How do I define immortality? In this case, I see it as permanence, generally from the production of something that is memorable enough to not stand and move with time. But we must remember that immortality is defined as infinite permanence – the product must be visible, tangible, or otherwise memorable forever. On earth, “forever” implies generations, a few millennia at most; cosmically, forever is…forever.
Some day, some time, an asteroid is going to destroy earth, or our planet will collide with another or and infinite number of other possibilities will vaporize earth in an instant (remember, we have an infinite amount of time in which one of these things can happen). And just like that, our world and whatever immortality we achieved will be gone.
It sounds terribly fatalistic, but it is also quite liberating. What do you think of the fact that with time, everything you have produced and anything you have become will be erased.
Jonathan Dobres
Mar 27, 09:05 AM
It’s the way of things—the ebb and flow of the universe and all that Buddhist jazz. I don’t care if my memory survives a supernova or not, I just want to make a difference while I’m here.
Atul
Mar 27, 02:45 PM
Yes, but if we colonize other planets or build a self-contained mobile space colony, we could survive even if the earth does not. Plus, we may have the ability to fend off whatever might destroy the earth with use of our science and technology. I think the bigger question is would anybody really want to be immortal in terms of staying alive? Also if it’s our memories that we want immortalized, as the number of people that have existed on this planet continues to grow, our immortal memories become less and less significant. It’s like blogs in the blogosphere.. As the blogosphere grows, each of our blogs becomes less important.
– Atul
Thame
Mar 27, 04:15 PM
Jonathan:
“I don’t care if my memory survives a supernova or not, I just want to make a difference while I’m here.”
What’s the point? Why bother if it won’t matter in a few years (if it even mattered in the first place). I agree with what you’re saying, but I’ve just been wondering about this.
Atul:
“Yes, but if we colonize other planets or build a self-contained mobile space colony, we could survive even if the earth does not. Plus, we may have the ability to fend off whatever might destroy the earth with use of our science and technology.”
No. The point is that with time, anything will be destroyed. No science or technology can overcome an infinite amount of time.
Jonathan Dobres
Mar 27, 05:16 PM
What’s the point? Why bother if it won’t matter in a few years (if it even mattered in the first place).
Well I guess you should just walk into the ocean right now then.
KarmaDude
Mar 27, 05:21 PM
I am not really worried about everything being erased eventually, it has happened before, and it will probably happen again. But I feel there is a purpose in all this somewhere. Unless we know everything there is to be known, it is tough to gauge whether it was worth it to have that knowledge, knowing fully well it could all be erased in the end.
Maybe the little pieces that make up the universe could have come together in us, so that it can be aware of itself. Maybe we are here to find the truth. But, will we be able to find the truth, before our time is up? And even if we do, what would we do with that truth? Will it give us immortality?
If we look at the atomic and sub atomic level, we are all immortal in a way (http://www.karmadude.com/2006/03/10/life-at-the-atomic-level/), the whole might not be, but the little pieces that we and the universe are made of might be.
Eric. I
Mar 27, 06:21 PM
I heartily agree that, yes, nothing we will ever do will matter in the grand scheme of things; how pessimistic of me.
However, just because our lives have no real point to them doesn’t mean it’s awul. You can take the dilemma in two ways: you can accept the illusion of purpose in life and happily live within that illusion, or like me, you can accept that there’s no real purpose to life.
Many choose to live within illusions of greatness and grandeur; usually dictators, conquerors, authors, and saints. But to most the choice will not matter. For me, my goal in life is to fill it with as much things as I can. With as much knowledge as I can. To enjoy myself, and make sure that I feel that every day is not a waste.
Who cares if anybody will know you after you’re dead. What matters is how you lived your life and if you are satisfied with that.
Carpe Diem, think of how many amazing things you could be doing right now at this very moment – instead of worrying about immortality. Immortality is only other people knowing you or what you did. Well they’ll die too, and discoveries will be overshadowed with time.
Allright i’m rambling. Just enjoy your life, and find whatever meaning that you can in it. It doesn’t matter if it’s religion, or friends, or work, so long as you can be satisfied.
Just think how amazing it is that “you” are alive right now and all the amazing things that surround you. Don’t get too caught up in social events, like offending people, or think that you have to be the greatest person ever to live. Just be satisfied with yourself, and with the wonders that are all around you.
p.s. I believe that Buddha would agree with me to some extent, not that i’m a buddhist, but I do think much of his philosophy as very revealing. Material possession is an illusion that we are slaves to; immortality is only another attachment.
Atul
Mar 27, 09:53 PM
Thame
Depending on what philosophy you believe in, the universe will exist infinitely over time. The atoms and particles we have today have (arguably) existed since the beginning of the universe. Depending on how you think the universe will end, it is feasible that something we make can last forever assuming it does not encounter any destructive forces. If nobody is around to appreciate it, then the question can be considered moot.
Thame
Mar 28, 07:10 AM
Great comments everyone. I don’t mean to sound so fatalistic…it’s just a thought.
Jonathan:
Fine. Gurgle gurgle gurgle :D
KarmaDude:
If we look at the atomic and sub atomic level, we are all immortal in a way, the whole might not be, but the little pieces that we and the universe are made of might be.
Good article, thanks. I’ve been reading the Bhagavad Gita for a class recently and I’ll try to post some thoughts (which agree with yours) once I’ve had a talk with my professor.
Eric:
“Carpe Diem, think of how many amazing things you could be doing right now at this very moment – instead of worrying about immortality. Immortality is only other people knowing you or what you did. Well they’ll die too, and discoveries will be overshadowed with time.”
Great suggestions. I’ve been thinking about this so much recently because I’m afraid I’m working too hard. After spending almost every waking hour in the library or at work, you start wondering about the point of it all.
Atul: Good point. Like I said, the Bhagavad Gita has been an excellent read so far and explains a similar philosophy.
Jonathan McDonald
Mar 28, 03:59 PM
Like Woody Allen once said, “I don’t want to achieve immortality through my work. I want to achieve it through not dying.” The desire for immortality is not limited to the infatuations of dead cultures, but is very much alive today, pardon the pun. Socrates was one of the most well-spoken philosophers in his belief of the afterlife, especially in its believability. But even today the vast majority of humanity holds to some religious belief that includes within it the notion of an afterlife.
The other Jonathan suggested walking into the ocean in response to Thame’s question about the point of existence, and I tend to agree with him, if given the cosmic finitude of human existence. I think it was C.S. Lewis who said that Darwinists are wrong to take the position that humanity ought to be perfecting itself as far as possible, since given an atheistic and utterly mortal view of the universe, the ultimate goal of the cosmos is death. Therefore we ought to acclimate ourselves to the universe and proceed committing as many homicides as possible, followed by our own suicide. Funny, but I think he had a point.
In my opinion it’s wrong to shove the drive for immortality into the distant past, and I don’t see how it is any less relevant today. Despite the fact that few people would want to live forever in this world, most still fear death as a seemingly unnatural thing. It’s an interesting dilemma: death or unending life in a bad (or at least insufficient) world?
Tom Martin
Mar 28, 08:18 PM
I have been doing nearly the same sort of school/work scenario with the “what’s the point” thought nagging at me. It hadn’t really come out though, until I started reading this article.
Everything I’ve ever done, ever worked for, ever made and cared for, gone in a blink of an eye. I think the best way to go about thinking this would be to just appreciate it while it lasts. One could drive themself mad thinking about this (and I don’t doubt there are people who have in the past and present). “Just try to take it a day at a time” I have been told, but I fear that is easier said then done.
I create what I do because I enjoy it, and it’s a little unnerving to think that everything will end, be gone in an instant. To me though, that gives a little more motivation to appreciate life and what’s in it, while it lasts. If my creations live on after I do, that is all good and dandy. When I’m gone, will I really care if my creations are destroyed?
Thame
Mar 29, 11:36 AM
“In my opinion it’s wrong to shove the drive for immortality into the distant past, and I don’t see how it is any less relevant today. Despite the fact that few people would want to live forever in this world, most still fear death as a seemingly unnatural thing. It’s an interesting dilemma: death or unending life in a bad (or at least insufficient) world?”
True. I did not mean to restrict it to that age. I have only been exposed to the concept in the form of ancient literature so that’s all I had to work with.
Therefore we ought to acclimate ourselves to the universe and proceed committing as many homicides as possible, followed by our own suicide.
That strangely makes sense.
Tom:
“I create what I do because I enjoy it, and it’s a little unnerving to think that everything will end, be gone in an instant. To me though, that gives a little more motivation to appreciate life and what’s in it, while it lasts. If my creations live on after I do, that is all good and dandy. When I’m gone, will I really care if my creations are destroyed?”
That’s a good point although I do feel that this “What’s the point?” thinking is also a part of experiencing life. If I can come to terms with this fact, I think I will actually give me more freedom.
Atul
Mar 29, 12:44 PM
Tom,
It’s true that what you do will be gone, but if it has impact on the future then it has an almost permanent presence. For instance, Einstein’s theories are done and although they aren’t gone, they have had and continue to have an impact on mankind (perhaps sometimes in bad ways too). To me, immortality of an act or an object is just its legacy or lasting effects, not necessarily permanent existence.
Eric. I
Mar 29, 04:03 PM
“Einstein’s theories are done and although they aren’t gone”
But will they really be around forever? What if our society crumbles tommorrow and records are lost?
I doubt you can tell me who invented the spear, the javelin, the bow and arrow, fire etc. These would have been more relavent and important discoveries than Einstein.
We attribute the catapault to people like Alexander, but it wasn’t him that invented it! Does hardly anybody care who invented the printing press anymore?
My point being that there is no such thing as immortality; if you think this then you have a grossly distorted view of time. All of man’s history, even existence, is nothing in the grand timeline of the universe. For 99% of the time that humans have been around we were still foragers!
We have forgotten our roots and blind ourselves with the idea that what is here now will remain forever, and what we do now matters at all. Eventually humans will fall into extinction and be lost in one of a million different ways.
You might as well just worry about the here and now because all immortality if temporary and therefore, ironically, mortal. Find comfort in life itself, in nature, in writing, in work, in whatever you like to do best.
Or, of course, just live in ignorance of time. Honestly, it doesn’t matter as long as people find happiness in their life. Even believe in immortality, as long as it works for you.
Tom Martin
Mar 29, 04:43 PM
Thame:
I do believe as well that this thinking is part of experiencing life as a human. It still doesn’t have a definitive answer, so I think it will continue being an experience. I think that those who have, will, and are coming to grips with this concept may have a more secure (I’m not sure if that’s the right word for what I want to convey) feeling to life, which will make life more enjoyable and overall pleasant.
Atul:
Good point about Einstein’s theories. I hadn’t thought of those when writing my last comment here. With that in mind, and seeing how our world as we see it today is shaped by the actions of those who lived tens and hundreds of years ago, I would have to say that I agree to an extent on what immortality is. Immortality isn’t of the physical being living forever, but the results of actions of that physical being. Whether it is a lasting thought, or monument, one can leave his mark in time for others to see and benefit from in future generations.
Even if the results of an action do not last forever, if they have lasted longer than the physical being, then in a way you have reached immortality. If we look at the others we have affected, that is. So then immortality wouldn’t necessarily going on forever, but going on for as long as possible. Which means in turn, we are immortal in life, and our actions have potential to be immortal after we are gone.
That at least, is what I’ve been thinking.
Eric. I:
“You might as well just worry about the here and now because all immortality if temporary and therefore, ironically, mortal.”
This is the sort of thing that I have been thinking, as seen above. Immortality is merely living as long as possible, in my view. If I live a good, long life, then I have reached immortality. If I live a decent life, but not to a ripe old age, I’ve still reached immortality. My thoughs and actions either die with me or continue on (but then who can say that my thoughts and actions are unique to only me?)
As you said about attributing the catapult with Alexander, I think we as humans tend to really not care about the origin of things that were existing for a long time before we came into existance. That is just a generalisation of course, as there are people who take great interest in trying to find it. What real use is it to us, knowing the origin? Just to know a name of a person we’ve never met? We will never know if it’s true or not, as we never were able to experience that person inventing the object. All we have to go off is what other people have said. And again, how do we know they’re right?
joseph skin
May 6, 05:42 PM
I think nothing of it, because we have been taught to let go of what we love at an early age. The thought of forever never enters my mind, because I dont belive forever exists in this life. I believe the word forever was thought of to set our minds at ease with our accomplishments, or whatever it is we produced in this world. The thought of everything coming to an end one day is natural, there is’nt one person on this planet that does’nt think of immortality. It’s inevitable, everything has to come to an end one day or another. Even if it does’nt humanity insures it.
sten
Feb 21, 04:31 PM
i’m immortal, anyway